You can download the file here … http://sourceforge.net/projects/notepad-plus/files/ ... it’s a free program. This is their website … http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm … that page also has steps to configure Windows to use Notepad++ instead of Notepad, which I did because it is extremely useful for me. Especially when I’m debugging some HTML/PHP script or even my older C++ programs. :-)
I’ve brought over the blog entries from Jim’s blog site and added them to the Adventure log. I also made sure to keep the same posting date and time. I also began entering Cregg the Cleric as a character.
Rjclark says: “Now on the subject of level limits. The increasing amount of exp, in OD&D was, at least I thought/think, the way to go, just let it keep going. if you need 100K exp to the next level, then the following level would cost 100k+. If you want to slow non humans down, give them a tougher exp table. I have never seen any reason to have level limits, period. And the argument it’s for ‘game balance’ is insane.”
Ok, some baseline for you on this. I have been ‘consulting’ 6 people (counting you, Kurt and John) who I trust in their opinions, plus my own opinion that I reserve just to try to judge with. Of the six of you here’s what I got:
Hard Level Limit: 3 oppose, 3 are ok with it
Soft Level Limit: 2 oppose, 2 are ok with it, 2 didn’t have an opinion
Hit Die Limit: 2 opposed, 2 agreed, 1 thought they were too low, 1 didn’t care
Seperate XP tables for Men and non-Men: 3 opposed, 3 are ok with it
There were other subjects, but everything trends the same way: no true concensus. The interesting thing is hard level limits and hit die limits are almost the same as far as HP are concerned, but a hit die limit means you still gain class abilities and levels (and a small amount of HP at each level), while a hard cap means you stop dead, or as Kurt likes to say ‘get stupid’.
Seperate XP tables didn’t fly farther than a lead balloon either, some people citing it wasn’t fair to non-humans because their abilities don’t scale with levels (oddly enough this was also one of the reasons to oppose a soft level limit). This was also pretty much the line against using race as a class.
Kurt made a good point about good gamers playing what they like and not making min/max choices to ‘get ahead’. Unfortunately, not everyone is our current group (and I’m hoping we expand someday).
I already made my descision on how I’m going to handle it:
Single-classed characters have unlimited advancement
Multiclassed characters use favored classes for unlimited advancement, non-favored classes have a soft cap based on the character’s prime requisite score(s)
Now I’m moving on cause I’m tired of this subject.
All right, can I chime in? About middle earth, at the time of the 2nd war of the ring, ie LotR, the humans had not become the dominate race, the elves were in the process of returning to the blessed lands. The Dwarve’s weren’t in decline, in fact they were re-surging, just not visible to the normal humans. Which was the setting of the story. The 4th age was about to begin, the age of man. but hadn’t yet, there was the small matter of a crapload of highly motivated orcs, and an even more motivated dark lord to deal with first.
Now on the subject of level limits. The increasing amount of exp, in OD&D was, at least I thought/think, the way to go, just let it keep going. if you need 100K exp to the next level, then the following level would cost 100k+. If you want to slow non humans down, give them a tougher exp table. I have never seen any reason to have level limits, period. And the argument it’s for ‘game balance’ is insane.
Various entries and corrections to the Wiki, NPCs are slowly being added. Look around and let me know what you guys think and what information, as players would be most useful to you.
When using real life myths and legends, most things ‘mythic’ were found in extremely small numbers, or as unique creatures. There were no nations of elves steeped in ancient magic or dwarves armed to the gills with adamantine weapons and mithril armor (even in scandavian legends)
JRRT’s non-humans were removed from the world of Men, except in epic moments, such as the War of the Ring. His ‘elves’ were’t even truly mortal either, and possessed powers beyond the ability of men (like the ability to wield magic). There weren’t everyday adventurers from the non-humans wandering about either.
Fantasy games (of all kinds) have non-humans in far greater numbers than most ‘mythic’ or legendary real world sources and literary sources as well. Demographics is less of a reason when using this comparison.
Leaving the issue of humans aside for now, some races just plain suck at certain things – ‘Halfling Fighter’ is one oxymoron that comes to mind. Some races are real good at certain things – ‘Dwarf Fighter’ is like a pair of synonyms. Should a halfling be able to be as good as a dwarf at fighting? Can a dwarf wield magic as well as a gnome? Is a brutish trollkin able to be as much of an entertaining bard as an elf? How do you level the playing field for these and make everything fair and make sense when they are a bunch of nonrealistic statistical creations? Logic doesn’t always work, game balance is a misnomer.
Then you add in humans and the whole thing gets skewed.
If level limits hadn’t been put into the first edition, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When it comes to arbitrary decisions made solely for some nebulous thing called “game balance”, nearly every one of them is a kludge and a mistake and fails to pass a logic test. I look to literature for guidance when it comes to level limits and the like, and I just can’t find it. Tolkein didn’t have his immortal elves suddenly get stupid when they hit a certain level. Myths and legends didn’t have the non human races as being less than human at every opportunity.
If you want to get into a hit dice limit, then make it 7 for all races. If Dwarf, +1. If Trollkin or Forged One, +2. Con bonus will give a variable bonus to the number of hit dice gained. Any race that’s “small” or gets bonuses because they’re small, gets a -1 point/die penalty (but the penalty can not take them below 2 hp at first level).
If the humans have to have a gimmie, then allow them to put the rolls wherever they want.
In the 30+ years I’ve been gaming I found that most good gamers play a race because it appeals to them; there’s some mystique about it that they groove on. Some of them prefer humans. Some prefer elves. Some dwarves. And some don’t have a preference and play whatever trips their fancy at the time.
And yes…I’m dragging this back to the demographics argument. :-) Humans are dominant because of their numbers, not because of any intrinsic factor that makes them better other than the fact that they breed like bunnies.
Kurt, after reading your email, I have to agree I’m not satisfied with level limits or limited hit dice. On Forged Men and Trollkin, their toughness is more due to their resistance to damage (Forged Man) and regenerative ability (Trollkin) than anything else.
Your reasoning does make me think another option, using Race Classes, would solve the issue and put it to bed. That along with multiclassing would allow PCs to still be any class, but allow single classed humans to stay slightly ahead of their curve.
The Pandora’s Box is that no one can agree on anything. One camp dislikes level limits, one camp dislikes hit die limits, one camp dislikes unlimited levels, etc, etc, etc. Here’s the breakdown as I’m seeing it:
Hard Level Limits – everything dead ends (HP, class abilities, etc).
Soft Level Limits – requires more XP to advance after certain level, continue to improve.
Hit Die Limit – only gain certain amount of HD, then flat hit points per level.
Unlimited – Why play a human when you get neato extras and unlimited levels?
The Hit Die limit is my way to bridge the level limiters and unlimited levelers. Humans have limits of Bard 10d6, Cleric 8d6, Fighting-men 9d8, Magic-users 11d4 or a flat HDL of 9 Hit Dice across the board. How to break down non-humans to keep it fair, but keep Men slightly ahead?
Toss out all level restrictions and let the fittest survive? ;-)
IMO, the only reason, and I mean the only reason that level limits ever became in issue was so that people would run humans.
In the end, it comes down to this question, “What do hit points really mean?” One of the things I’ve been considering for my game (when I develop the game for the world that includes Brightmere Crossing) is that you have life points, and fight points (or whatever the name might be). Life points are based on race and physical qualities. Fight points are based on experience, mindset, and will power. Everyone has both. The more experienced you are, the more fight points you have. This is the ability to dodge at the last minute and turn a life taking strike into a minor wound. Each hit, though, does at least one life point of damage.
I look at the smaller nonhuman characters and just can’t accept that they have the same ability to take damage, at first level, that a human, dwarf, or elf does, and that (using Onn races) a Forged One or Trollkin being much more massive and physically durable, will take as much as a smaller human, dwarf, or elf.
As soon as you bring racial limits of any kind into the picture a Pandora’s box is opened.
A single classed cleric has an 8 HD max (human). No one’s been happy with level limits (including me) but I don’t feel non-humans should be equal to humans so there has to be a limiting factor. Do you have any alternative suggestions?
Yeah, I’m working on a city map and a blown-up area map from Whitemarsh to Wyrmwood to Provallah. Things will slowly get posted between now and the 7th.
I misread your question, feel free to add your characters to your profiles after we roll up, post adventure logs, add to the wiki, whatever you feel will add to your gaming experience!
Let’s try that again with the links! Download from Sourceforge Notepad++ Actual Site
You can download the file here … http://sourceforge.net/projects/notepad-plus/files/ ... it’s a free program. This is their website … http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/uk/site.htm … that page also has steps to configure Windows to use Notepad++ instead of Notepad, which I did because it is extremely useful for me. Especially when I’m debugging some HTML/PHP script or even my older C++ programs. :-)
Same for the war hammer, 1d4+2 would be your damage. :o)
Notepad++, where can I get it? I’m thinking it would be easier to use than the manual scrawl I’m been slogging though with.
Also, no biggie, but slings use your strength adjustment to damage so your stones should list damage as 1d3+1.
NOOOO!!! How could I miss that?
John, on Cregg’s character sheet, his Charisma should be a +1 adjustment and you have it listed as +0. Just thought I’d point it out.
You have to go to the campaign first then click on the characters tab. There should be an button to create new character.
I’d email John, cause I’m still baffled as to where he got the sheet. It looks nice though.
How do I put Flambo in as a character?
No problem. I didn’t really specify. I just liked the look of Cregg compared to Craig. :-)
Cool, I fixed your character’s name on my blog posts, sorry for the hack job on it. :o)
I’ve brought over the blog entries from Jim’s blog site and added them to the Adventure log. I also made sure to keep the same posting date and time. I also began entering Cregg the Cleric as a character.
Nothing much today, just 2 more town locations and NPCs.
I’ve had a busy day today so nothing got added to the site. Tomorrow may be a busy building day though. :o)
Sorry, those are copyrighted already! ;o)
Oh Oh! Can I be a Mutant Turtle with Ninja skilss
?!
Rjclark says: “Now on the subject of level limits. The increasing amount of exp, in OD&D was, at least I thought/think, the way to go, just let it keep going. if you need 100K exp to the next level, then the following level would cost 100k+. If you want to slow non humans down, give them a tougher exp table. I have never seen any reason to have level limits, period. And the argument it’s for ‘game balance’ is insane.”
Ok, some baseline for you on this. I have been ‘consulting’ 6 people (counting you, Kurt and John) who I trust in their opinions, plus my own opinion that I reserve just to try to judge with. Of the six of you here’s what I got:
Hard Level Limit: 3 oppose, 3 are ok with it Soft Level Limit: 2 oppose, 2 are ok with it, 2 didn’t have an opinion Hit Die Limit: 2 opposed, 2 agreed, 1 thought they were too low, 1 didn’t care Seperate XP tables for Men and non-Men: 3 opposed, 3 are ok with it
There were other subjects, but everything trends the same way: no true concensus. The interesting thing is hard level limits and hit die limits are almost the same as far as HP are concerned, but a hit die limit means you still gain class abilities and levels (and a small amount of HP at each level), while a hard cap means you stop dead, or as Kurt likes to say ‘get stupid’.
Seperate XP tables didn’t fly farther than a lead balloon either, some people citing it wasn’t fair to non-humans because their abilities don’t scale with levels (oddly enough this was also one of the reasons to oppose a soft level limit). This was also pretty much the line against using race as a class.
Kurt made a good point about good gamers playing what they like and not making min/max choices to ‘get ahead’. Unfortunately, not everyone is our current group (and I’m hoping we expand someday).
I already made my descision on how I’m going to handle it:
Now I’m moving on cause I’m tired of this subject.
Opps, that should say ‘Man’ in Cicero’s description. It’s fixed.
What’s a Nam?
All right, can I chime in? About middle earth, at the time of the 2nd war of the ring, ie LotR, the humans had not become the dominate race, the elves were in the process of returning to the blessed lands. The Dwarve’s weren’t in decline, in fact they were re-surging, just not visible to the normal humans. Which was the setting of the story. The 4th age was about to begin, the age of man. but hadn’t yet, there was the small matter of a crapload of highly motivated orcs, and an even more motivated dark lord to deal with first.
Now on the subject of level limits. The increasing amount of exp, in OD&D was, at least I thought/think, the way to go, just let it keep going. if you need 100K exp to the next level, then the following level would cost 100k+. If you want to slow non humans down, give them a tougher exp table. I have never seen any reason to have level limits, period. And the argument it’s for ‘game balance’ is insane.
Just my opinion. 0_8^}
Various entries and corrections to the Wiki, NPCs are slowly being added. Look around and let me know what you guys think and what information, as players would be most useful to you.
A description of Sirac’s Point’s main city locations, NPCs and a map are in progress.
The Wiki is updated with the (short) character creation rules!
The wiki is updated with the Sirac’s Point region and a map!
When using real life myths and legends, most things ‘mythic’ were found in extremely small numbers, or as unique creatures. There were no nations of elves steeped in ancient magic or dwarves armed to the gills with adamantine weapons and mithril armor (even in scandavian legends)
JRRT’s non-humans were removed from the world of Men, except in epic moments, such as the War of the Ring. His ‘elves’ were’t even truly mortal either, and possessed powers beyond the ability of men (like the ability to wield magic). There weren’t everyday adventurers from the non-humans wandering about either.
Fantasy games (of all kinds) have non-humans in far greater numbers than most ‘mythic’ or legendary real world sources and literary sources as well. Demographics is less of a reason when using this comparison.
Leaving the issue of humans aside for now, some races just plain suck at certain things – ‘Halfling Fighter’ is one oxymoron that comes to mind. Some races are real good at certain things – ‘Dwarf Fighter’ is like a pair of synonyms. Should a halfling be able to be as good as a dwarf at fighting? Can a dwarf wield magic as well as a gnome? Is a brutish trollkin able to be as much of an entertaining bard as an elf? How do you level the playing field for these and make everything fair and make sense when they are a bunch of nonrealistic statistical creations? Logic doesn’t always work, game balance is a misnomer.
Then you add in humans and the whole thing gets skewed.
If level limits hadn’t been put into the first edition, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. When it comes to arbitrary decisions made solely for some nebulous thing called “game balance”, nearly every one of them is a kludge and a mistake and fails to pass a logic test. I look to literature for guidance when it comes to level limits and the like, and I just can’t find it. Tolkein didn’t have his immortal elves suddenly get stupid when they hit a certain level. Myths and legends didn’t have the non human races as being less than human at every opportunity.
If you want to get into a hit dice limit, then make it 7 for all races. If Dwarf, +1. If Trollkin or Forged One, +2. Con bonus will give a variable bonus to the number of hit dice gained. Any race that’s “small” or gets bonuses because they’re small, gets a -1 point/die penalty (but the penalty can not take them below 2 hp at first level).
If the humans have to have a gimmie, then allow them to put the rolls wherever they want.
In the 30+ years I’ve been gaming I found that most good gamers play a race because it appeals to them; there’s some mystique about it that they groove on. Some of them prefer humans. Some prefer elves. Some dwarves. And some don’t have a preference and play whatever trips their fancy at the time.
And yes…I’m dragging this back to the demographics argument. :-) Humans are dominant because of their numbers, not because of any intrinsic factor that makes them better other than the fact that they breed like bunnies.
Kurt, after reading your email, I have to agree I’m not satisfied with level limits or limited hit dice. On Forged Men and Trollkin, their toughness is more due to their resistance to damage (Forged Man) and regenerative ability (Trollkin) than anything else.
Your reasoning does make me think another option, using Race Classes, would solve the issue and put it to bed. That along with multiclassing would allow PCs to still be any class, but allow single classed humans to stay slightly ahead of their curve.
The Pandora’s Box is that no one can agree on anything. One camp dislikes level limits, one camp dislikes hit die limits, one camp dislikes unlimited levels, etc, etc, etc. Here’s the breakdown as I’m seeing it:
Hard Level Limits – everything dead ends (HP, class abilities, etc). Soft Level Limits – requires more XP to advance after certain level, continue to improve. Hit Die Limit – only gain certain amount of HD, then flat hit points per level. Unlimited – Why play a human when you get neato extras and unlimited levels?
The Hit Die limit is my way to bridge the level limiters and unlimited levelers. Humans have limits of Bard 10d6, Cleric 8d6, Fighting-men 9d8, Magic-users 11d4 or a flat HDL of 9 Hit Dice across the board. How to break down non-humans to keep it fair, but keep Men slightly ahead?
Toss out all level restrictions and let the fittest survive? ;-)
IMO, the only reason, and I mean the only reason that level limits ever became in issue was so that people would run humans.
In the end, it comes down to this question, “What do hit points really mean?” One of the things I’ve been considering for my game (when I develop the game for the world that includes Brightmere Crossing) is that you have life points, and fight points (or whatever the name might be). Life points are based on race and physical qualities. Fight points are based on experience, mindset, and will power. Everyone has both. The more experienced you are, the more fight points you have. This is the ability to dodge at the last minute and turn a life taking strike into a minor wound. Each hit, though, does at least one life point of damage.
I look at the smaller nonhuman characters and just can’t accept that they have the same ability to take damage, at first level, that a human, dwarf, or elf does, and that (using Onn races) a Forged One or Trollkin being much more massive and physically durable, will take as much as a smaller human, dwarf, or elf.
As soon as you bring racial limits of any kind into the picture a Pandora’s box is opened.
A single classed cleric has an 8 HD max (human). No one’s been happy with level limits (including me) but I don’t feel non-humans should be equal to humans so there has to be a limiting factor. Do you have any alternative suggestions?
On the 7hd limit, sounds kinda light to me.
Yeah, I’m working on a city map and a blown-up area map from Whitemarsh to Wyrmwood to Provallah. Things will slowly get posted between now and the 7th.
Will there be maps of the local area around Sirac’s point?
I misread your question, feel free to add your characters to your profiles after we roll up, post adventure logs, add to the wiki, whatever you feel will add to your gaming experience!
No problem. Sounds good to me! :-)
I still want to hold off on character creation until the first time we get together on 1/7/10.
Nice!! Should we create our characters in our accounts?