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Magic / Occult Discussion
Some questions / observations for George and Maude (and anyone else who wants to weigh in)
1. It seems George can track backwards in time, apparently, some sort of effect on the Shroud; like an echo, able to be viewed to see what has gone before in same space. How does that work? What is the extent of this ability? Does it only apply to emotionally intense events such as battle, or can it be used to overhear conversations that took place before? If these ‘echoes’ are in the Shroud, can a necromantic ritual allow a necromancer to do the same thing and access these echoes?
2. So George is able to increase his powers – can now talk and effect environment more than before; presumably could always talk, but can now pierce the Shroud from his side to our to effect this side more. Is this like a Cainite learning to use the powers of their Blood? Does Nigromancy then allow its users to do the same?
3. Maude’s attitude of “oh, I’ll just make a ritual to wake a Cainite from torpor” is interesting. Is this an indication of the ‘think it, make it happen’ effect of her magic.
4. Are magical effects just limited to necromancy? No, as is obvious by other effects such as koldonic sorcery. So, what limits ‘magic’ as ‘thought-made-reality’? Seemingly, the mind of the magician. So if a magician has a powerful / open enough mind, they could do anything? What are the limits? Are Cainites only limited to one type of magic? Can they do more? How? Furthermore, if magic is something that comes from the land, and Cainites are despised by those close to the land as vile and poison and filth, yet Cainites CAN do magic, then there must be more than one way to do ‘magic’. So what are the ways?
Such are the musings of Gunthar the Christian Crusader knight…
With 5 Intelligence and 4 Occult, Maude is obviously very well positioned to answer all these questions. However, I (as in Dave) am not. I’ll do my best though.
With regards to the “torpor begone” ritual, there is already a precedent for Mortis users having magic that can achieve that effect. Neither Maude nor Dietrich know the ritual specifically, but I think the assumption is that given her intellect and ability with Mortis, she knows enough of the theory to be able to attempt to replicate the effect. I imagine it’s analogous to a skilled composer listening to a piece of orchestral music a few times, and then later on trying to write the piece out in musical notation for all the different instruments from memory and get it as close as possible to the original.
To continue the music analogy, different types of magic are like different kinds of music. Middle Ages chamber music and uplifting-progressive-techo-funk dance music both have aspects of musical structure in common and can both stir you (or not), but the way in which they are made is obviously very different. Maude plays a mean violin (Mortis) and understands a lot about many different types of music (magic), but even if her understanding is great she can’t just pick up and skilfully play a flute (Abyss mysticism) and she can neither use nor understand a DJ’s turntable (Koldunic sorcery).
So, at least as far as Mortis is concerned, magic isn’t about arbitrarily changing the nature of reality simply by exerting your will. Rather it’s about manipulating unseen forces that already exist to create useful effects. Presumably a lot of experimentation with manipulating these forces leads to interesting but non-useful outcomes, too. (“Oh look, if I manipulate the Shroud just so my fingernails all fall out.”)
From a meta-game point of view, Maude’s ritual invention is a pretty straight-forward process. I think of a power I’d like Maude to have, I give it a deathly or ghostly theme, and I submit it to Damien for auditing. He checks that the flavour text is consistent with the “science” of magic, checks that the level of the ritual is the same as existing rulebook rituals of comparable power, and then does a final gut-feel analysis heavily influenced by the Rule of Cool.
If you want to get in on the ritual crafting action, then you can. Gunthar can simply say to Maude, “How about whipping me up a ritual that makes me the military genius leader of a massive and unstoppable army!” (say) and Maude will see what she can do.
Anyway, Maude is prepared to answer all Gunthar’s questions above to the best of her ability, but unfortunately that means Damien will actually have to, since he knows more about what Maude knows that I do (if that makes sense). He may also have to correct anything I’ve said above which isn’t accurate.
Maude the Radiant
((All cool. Post line of questioning came from a downtime summary that Damien suggested I post on the forums.))
Nice analogy re music, btw. So if I understand that, Gunthar needs to find a violin…
1. It seems George can track backwards in time, apparently, some sort of effect on the Shroud; like an echo, able to be viewed to see what has gone before in same space. How does that work? What is the extent of this ability? Does it only apply to emotionally intense events such as battle, or can it be used to overhear conversations that took place before? If these ‘echoes’ are in the Shroud, can a necromantic ritual allow a necromancer to do the same thing and access these echoes?
- [OOC: I’m actually not sure what you are getting at here regarding George’ powers. When did I give you the impression of these “echoes” in the manner that you describe? Are we talking about the werewolf battle? That was mostly just a case of him finding the battle, then using his high Perception (intuitive descriptor), Investigation and Tactics die combinations to determine the outcome.By the way, I’m more than happy for Gunthar to continue believing this stuff anyway ;→]
- [IC: Power wise: As you have all now observed a couple of times, he also seems to have the ability to determine the pull of Fate in certain situations, the echoes (if you will) that peoples actions and decisions cause in the grand scheme. It is likely that he would have done so regarding the Werewolf battle.
2. So George is able to increase his powers – can now talk and effect environment more than before; presumably could always talk, but can now pierce the Shroud from his side to our to effect this side more. Is this like a Cainite learning to use the powers of their Blood? Does Nigromancy then allow its users to do the same?
- Q1- Maude would know that the Spiriti do have a number of powers, and seem to be predisposed towards a number of them based upon their proclivities (George for instance, wants to be able to interact with Iulia, and also to protect her and safely advise her; therefore his powers are leaning in that direction). The powers so not appear to “come naturally”, and it is a long road for a Spiritu to discover them, often requiring extreme passion, extensive trial and error and patient mentoring.
- Q2- Ambrogino has hinted that higher level Nigrimancy powers and associated rituals can indeed manipulate the Shroud and bolster/injure the Spiriti. He also said that he would be willing to give Maude further instruction in return for her own rituals.
3. Maude’s attitude of “oh, I’ll just make a ritual to wake a Cainite from torpor” is interesting. Is this an indication of the ‘think it, make it happen’ effect of her magic.
- [OOC: Dave is pretty much spot on with this one]
- IC: Maude is about the best non-Giovanni Cappadocian ritual crafter to come along in many centuries. As Maude thinks logically and instrumentally regarding her rituals, she simply thinks of an effect and then experiments with the rituals to eventually create that effect. Other Mortis practitioners have a much harder time of it for the most part as it is not as useful as more general forms of magic.
4. Are magical effects just limited to necromancy? No, as is obvious by other effects such as koldonic sorcery. So, what limits ‘magic’ as ‘thought-made-reality’? Seemingly, the mind of the magician. So if a magician has a powerful / open enough mind, they could do anything? What are the limits? Are Cainites only limited to one type of magic? Can they do more? How? Furthermore, if magic is something that comes from the land, and Cainites are despised by those close to the land as vile and poison and filth, yet Cainites CAN do magic, then there must be more than one way to do ‘magic’. So what are the ways?
- [OOC: I like the musical analogy too. The only thing that I might add is that Maude (who may wish to keep the following to herself after all) would be aware that there is a kind of magic (or magick) that goes beyond simple music and approaches something truly transcending mortality. The mortal magi that play that music are truly the highest practitioners of magic and are very rare! She has never heard of a Cainite that can perform such wonders. Dietrich and Maude have both wondered whether the Tremere were once counted among their number, as the rapidity of their mastery of Thaumaturgy was truly uncanny! And if they were, why would they give it up?]
- IC, Dave is pretty much spot on again. “Magic” as “thought-made-reality” isn’t quite right in her experience, but rather imagination combined with rigourous experimentation. There are certainly limits, though whether they are a function of an open and powerful mind, experience, imagination or merely belief is open to interpretation. Such has been the discourse of occult scholars and “magicians” or “sorcerers” for many centuries.
- Maude would know that it is easier to craft rituals along established lines and patterns of thought and belief, and these traditional structures have led to the foundations of every Cainite interpretation of sorcery. Mortis, for instance,is based upon the body of ancient and medieval knowledge concerning anatomy and the forces of entropy that assail it. It is limited by the typical Cappadocian’s poor understanding of what this entails. Maude’s ability to translate those beliefs into new methods through her imagination, and tenacious experiments is what sets her apart. Her attitude and understanding is centuries ahead of her time, as is that of the Giovanni, who have taken the idea of continuing that entropic process across the Shroud.
- Other traditions exist, and Maude has a vague and poor understanding of them based upon the secretiveness of their practitioners. She knows that certain Assamites and a few others are capable of a sorcery based upon the cosmology, philosophy and spiritual beliefs of the east (this is Dur-An-Ki or something similar, as near as she can tell). The Lasombra have their esoteric pursuits of a mysticism based on the alien and inimical nature of the Abyss (that is literally all she knows). It is said that the Followers of Set have magic based upon the religion and cosmology of Ancient Egypt (a subject which is extremely poorly understood by outsiders). Obviously you have the Tzimisce Kolduns, whose power is rooted in the pagan past and the five elements, not just the land (you have all observed some of what they can do). And finally, you have the Tremere, who seem to have taken the hermetic traditions of the Hellenic-Roman world and adapted them to Blood Sorcery(they seem to be capable of a great many utilitarian effects based upon their pseudo-scientific beiefs).
Right. Did I miss any questions?
